Source Fields & Citation detail

[Michael Talibard]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

As before, I agree with Roger, and especially with this:

To my mind a record on a piece of paper = a Source, worthy of its own source number.

Also, as you go on, the amount of typing needed for a new source gets less and less, as you acquire near-lookalikes to duplicate and tweek. Of course, the images are all new - that's the point. But how to get the images out of Ancestry? I can't see a short cut there, I'm afraid.

[janelucas]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Don't know if this is something you have already explored, and, it's for Legacy Family Tree, not Reunion. However, found this on Legacy's website:

http://support.legacyfamilytree.com/article/AA-00518

Thank you for that. Looking at what you have all has said makes me wonder if there is a different way to do it, so I'm going to have a look. But Legacy looks like a good programme and I've passed on your suggestion to my sister who is also looking for software ideas for a genealogy programme.

[janelucas]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Hi Jane,
I purchased Family Tree Maker for Mac 3 and the method Roger described was how I got the images and sources etc to my computer from Ancestry. When you click File > New and then choose Download; there is an option to download citation media from Ancestry.

Again, thank you so much for all this help. This forum is so great. If I read you and Roger correctly, then I should be able to get the detail I need from FTM. So I will have a look at it. When I downloaded the GEDCOM originally from FTM I couldn't see any choice about how it was exported, I just clicked 'export' and got what I got! But I'll go and have a play around with it. Nearly all my sources are from the UK, and I have very few electoral register sources. They're mostly BMD and Census data. so it should work.
I'll keep this forum page open as I'm nit quite sure I can see what you're doing differently!

[janelucas]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

As before, I agree with Roger, and especially with this: Also, as you go on, the amount of typing needed for a new source gets less and less, as you acquire near-lookalikes to duplicate and tweek. Of course, the images are all new - that's the point. But how to get the images out of Ancestry? I can't see a short cut there, I'm afraid.

I think you're both right and it's good advice, thank you. I'm very glad to have access to this forum. Hopefully if I get it right now, I will only need minor tweaks in the future.

[janelucas]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Hi Jane,
I used the approach of "if Ancestry calls it a source, I will call it a source" and looking at FTM3, it shows a source (default template) as having title, author, publisher, publisher location, respository, call number and comments PLUS multimedia and the citation linking to the source contains the source, repository, citation detail (which I used in Reunion detail field) and citation text and web site. The web site is not exported. I am manually dding these and once done, will probably stay with Reunion (less bugs)

I think I'm being very dense! I have FTM3 synced to my MacBook. From that tree in FTM I exported one individual to my desktop with only two records (BMD/Marriage) so it's easy to see what's happening. I have 'download citation media from Ancestry' checked. I exported to desktop and then added it to a new Reunion file. But when I open the individual, the source citation detail and images are not copied. In the Family View page I have the right name/DOB/Marriage. The source citation has 'Author, Title, publisher and Library/Archive' filled in, but there is no detail, in one case a symbol '@M174@'. The source type in the sidebar is 'free form'. I believe that is the default in Reunion.
For the Birth Record, the specific detail for the individual from Ancestry is not there.. i.e. Volume and page number, Mother's maiden name, which is shown on the Record I have attached in Ancestry for that individual, and on the original image. In Ancestry you have to click the original image link to open it, so I didn't expect that link to export.
From what you say, it sounds as though you have found a way to select source type rather than free form? But I can't see any way to do that.
Someone at Reunion is looking at this for me, but if you can do it I should be able to !

[s1xc00k]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

...The source citation has 'Author, Title, publisher and Library/Archive' filled in, but there is no detail, in one case a symbol '@M174@'. The source type in the sidebar is 'free form'. I believe that is the default in Reunion.

Hi Jane,
I will unarchive my FTM3 GEDCOM file and try to repeat the steps for the import. The @M174@ should be appearing in the freeform-text part for each of the sources with multmedia links. This can be corrected to be the media file itself and the detail is a quick fix from memory (I did this about 2 months ago). The issue is that the FTM3 exported GEDCOM tags and level of those tags are incorrect for Reunion to interpret but the key aspect is that the data is in the GEDCOM file so it is not lost and can be used, which is good news. I will post an article in response when done for you.
Regards,
Paul

[:-}dave]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Hi Paul,
Thanks. Yes, this seems to be the consensus.. i.e. Using the detail field for specifics so one source can be used for multiple entries. It certainly seems like it's going to take a while to get used to. Reunion does get good reviews and plenty of support on this site, so I'm hopeful!
Think I'm just in panic mode at the moment. Ancestry is virtually 'click and save'! But I've moved to Reunion for more control and a decent database so I'm glad to hear from someone who has made the same move and is happy with it.

Yes I would be cautious of manually alllocating Source identifiers.
Reunion uses a relational manner and every Source must be unique. Not to say that a Source (person or organisation) cannot appear multiple times as they logically can provide different data.
I wouldn't create a source then append 10 different 'data types' to one source. That is overly complex and inevitably would lead to 'Which 'data' did I mean when I used 'that' Source.

Intial post since 2005 so forgive me if I've crossed wires.
Dave

[:-}dave]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

I'm not sure that overall this is a consensus - I have no problems with having thousands of sources ...
But what if you save a printout of each applicable page from the 1940 US Federal Census - either as a file on your computer, or an actual paper printout? Then you end up with say 200 different extracts from the "1940 US Federal Census", so 200 digital files, or 200 pieces of paper.

Or what if you want to link the Census image each time it's used - linking them all to the source quickly becomes unwieldily, and you can't link them to the Detail.

Roger of the Other View

Surely attaching such documents is overkill? A 'link' is more than efficient and keeps them outside the actual database, reducing bloat and sluggishness. And Detail is where the content resides, in a clear and logical fashion. The document held externally is just 'the proof' of Source. It need not be the actual contained document.
FWIW, dave

[janelucas]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Hi Jane,
I will unarchive my FTM3 GEDCOM file and try to repeat the steps for the import. The @M174@ should be appearing in the freeform-text part for each of the sources with multmedia links. This can be corrected to be the media file itself and the detail is a quick fix from memory (I did this about 2 months ago). The issue is that the FTM3 exported GEDCOM tags and level of those tags are incorrect for Reunion to interpret but the key aspect is that the data is in the GEDCOM file so it is not lost and can be used, which is good news. I will post an article in response when done for you.
Regards,
Paul

That is extremely kind of you, thank you. At least I'll know what I'm doing then,, and I'm sure there must be other people in a similar position. I was just looking at the fields in FTM. It seems to me that the BMD citation detail doesn't copy over like the Census data. I wondered if that was part of the problem.

[janelucas]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Surely attaching such documents is overkill? A 'link' is more than efficient and keeps them outside the actual database, reducing bloat and sluggishness. And Detail is where the content resides, in a clear and logical fashion. The document held externally is just 'the proof' of Source. It need not be the actual contained document.
FWIW, dave

Thanks Dave. I think I will do that for some records. Straightforward BMD for instance, you just need the facts and don't need to refer to it again usually. But I use the Census data quite a bit. It often helps to see who else is on the page. But you're right, I don't need every bit of the source in many cases.

[s1xc00k]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

That is extremely kind of you, thank you. At least I'll know what I'm doing then,, and I'm sure there must be other people in a similar position. I was just looking at the fields in FTM. It seems to me that the BMD citation detail doesn't copy over like the Census data. I wondered if that was part of the problem.

Hi Jane,
I have attached a PDF document which shows some FTMM3 (hope that is ok in the Reunion 10 forum) screen shots of creating an individual with a birth event linked to a source and some media; exporting that file as a GEDCOM and more importantly, importing it into Reunion 10 and what Reunion 10 shows.
The process for you may differ since knowing what data you keyed where into FTMM3 since FTMM3 allows media to be attached to people (individuals and family), events, citations and sources, whereas Reunion 10 allows media to people (individuals and family) and sources. I am wondering if the media attachments were attached to the source citation in FTMM3 which is where Ancestry tend to place these?
Anyhow, not to worry, we can sort it out for you; since this is what we are all here for, to help each other out.
Let me know if the document assists and feel free to provide more details via screen shots (use Preview to capture screen areas) - the image quality is abit low since file sizes need to be under 195KB so I had to compress the PDF a number of times which is unfortunate.
Regards
Paul

[janelucas]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Yes I would be cautious of manually alllocating Source identifiers.
Reunion uses a relational manner and every Source must be unique.

I'm not sure I meant that exactly, but I had thought I could have say, 'England and Wales Births ...' as one source number, then add the specifics in the citation detail field/s. I suspect the data and individuals I'm importing now will look different to any new people and sources I add. I'll have more control of how new sources are cited.
I'm also aware of the caution some people have over how they use source fields in genealogy software in case they need to change programmes. It's a bit like the problem I'm having now. If the GEDCOM tags don't match there is a danger of losing data or losing the structure. So I will be careful to keep the sources unique, thanks.

[s1xc00k]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Hi Jane,
... I am wondering if the media attachments were attached to the source citation in FTMM3 which is where Ancestry tend to place these?

Hi Jane,
If the Ancestry media are attached in citation media area of FTMM3, the OBJE GEDCOM tag is being placed after the citation detail in the GEDCOM file. The result is the media tag is shown as @M2@ in this case in the free-form text area when imported into Reunion 10.
I have a screen shot of an exported FTMM3 GEDCOM file, which had media attached to citations as opposed to the source (that is what the PDF covered). The effect is maybe what you are seeing, if so, it can be fixed which is good news.
Regards,
Paul

[janelucas]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

Hi Jane,
I have attached a PDF document which shows some FTMM3 (hope that is ok in the Reunion 10 forum) screen shots of creating an individual with a birth event linked to a source and some media; exporting that file as a GEDCOM and more importantly, importing it into Reunion 10 and what Reunion 10 shows.

H Paul
Thank you so much for that. It's really valuable 'insider' knowledge, and very much appreciated. It would probably have taken me months to work some of this out.

I have followed the procedure in your PDF so that I can see what happens, and where the data goes in Reunion. I now know what I have to do when adding new sources in order to have all the source detail I think is needed. What I have discovered is that for BMD records, Ancestry don't have the data in a field. They put it on their index page, the one that comes up when you do a search. It is their way of taking the information from the original image. So that info, which includes things like Mother's maiden name, Registration quarter and district, volume and page number, has to be added manually in FTM. I spoke to them this morning and they said there was no way of linking that from Ancestry to FTM.. Which I think is odd. If I'd known that earlier, I could have added those details in FTM following your procedure. Unfortunately all my records have been saved directly to Ancestry.
So that is one reason data appears to be missing in Reunion. I'll just have to cut and paste for all the existing records. From now on I can add it directly to a Reunion citation detail field.

You're right about where the media are attached in Ancestry. It's attached to the citation detail, so the GEDCOM tag is after the citation and shows up in Reunion in the free form area. It is a relief to know it can be fixed. Trouble is where a record is common to a number of people, say the 1891 Census, all the data appears in everyone's free form field. So if I have attached that Census to 100 people, every individual has the data for the other 99 as well as his own! I can't imagine how that can be easily unpicked.

I can probably follow a procedure to fix one or two but I don't think I would know where to start with hundreds. If you have a 'how to' link though to that info easily to hand, I would appreciate it. I have a feeling I will need it in the future!

However, someone at Reunion is kindly looking at the GEDCOM I imported to Reunion with a view to modifying it, which would be great, and I'm keeping everything crossed for that.

I can't thank you enough for this help. I think I would have chucked the programme in the bin by now without it. Thank you, and everyone else who has contributed. It might be a while until I learn enough to be able to reciprocate! I have a Worldwide Ancestry subscription which runs out end September if anyone wants something looking up... Sorry.. Off thread.
Jane

[s1xc00k]

Re: Source Fields & Citation detail

...
You're right about where the media are attached in Ancestry. It's attached to the citation detail, so the GEDCOM tag is after the citation and shows up in Reunion in the free form area. It is a relief to know it can be fixed. Trouble is where a record is common to a number of people, say the 1891 Census, all the data appears in everyone's free form field. So if I have attached that Census to 100 people, every individual has the data for the other 99 as well as his own! I can't imagine how that can be easily unpicked.

Hi Jane,
I am glad the PDF and screen dumps were useful. When I was using FTMM3, I wondered about whether to add media to the source or citations and like you, I had quite afew media items attached to citations. There are two ways of fixing it (three if you count Reunion support staff);
(a) for each citation in FTMM3, double-click edit source and link media to the source and unlink media from the citation (time consuming, but an option),
(b) I can write another procedure on how I did this but it involves using AppleScript and TextWrangler text editor, i.e. you run two applescript macros and afew import and exports of GEDCOM from within Reunion and the job is done. The reason for Applescript is that when you have 100s or more (I have around 250 images), you need an automated way of doing it. One issue I found, was sometimes the media is duplicated in the source - easy to rectify since Reunion allows you to sort by media count so they stand out; I think I had media attached to events as well which it fixed but I got duplicated items in the source.
If you are ok with option (b), reply to this thread and I will type this out sometime today. I just have to remember how I did it; I was abit of trial and error and I lost abit of hair doing it lol....
Also, I did have use for that worldwide Ancestry search if you are able to do a quick search for me; looking for an Alfred Bell Cook born in Bath, MA, USA from 1845 to 1847; not sure if you could see if there are any birth details?
Thanks heaps
Paul
PS I can not upload Applescripts here since they are an invalid file format for this forum. So I will include them in the PDF so you can copy and paste them into AppleScript Editor. You will need to modify them for your filename and directory path.