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billdrn
25 July 2005, 05:35 PM
I have a couple who were married in a civil ceremony and later in a church ceremony. Is there any way to show these two marriages in the family card window? I have used the

David G. Kanter
25 July 2005, 06:36 PM
I have a couple who were married in a civil ceremony and later in a church ceremony. Is there any way to show these two marriages in the family card window?In such dual-ceremony situations, I've entered both dates, separated with a "/", in the Marriage Date field and both places, again separated with a "/", in the Marriage Place field. You could append each date with something such as "(civil)" and "(church)" to avoid having to use any Miscellaneous Note if that's all the further explanation that you wish to record. (I typically put the earlier date of the two in as the Custom Date field.)
Once a marriage is entered, its status can be changed to divorce, annulment, or separation but no option for remarriage. Could Leister add another status option?Such a suggestion should be reposted in the Wish List forum, but I'd caution against suggesting an additional Status of "remarriage". First, an additional Status wouldn't help with the dual dates/dual places--and I suggest the dual-entry method I've described above might be satisfactory for your purpose--but more important, I believe such a Status would be too easily confused with where a couple remarried (i.e., married, divorced, and married again)--in which case I find it more appropriate to create a second Family Card for them. But then, that's just my 2

theKiwi
25 July 2005, 08:35 PM
In one instance of this I know happened in my family file, I created a Custom Event called "Second Marriage" and added that to the couple's family card. It doesn't show on the screen, but it can be made to show in other output.

Roger

STEVE
26 July 2005, 07:32 PM
...Could Leister add another status option?Better yet, could Leister allow us to define our own. This would provide a flexibility that has been needed for years.

STEVE

WilliamTaber
26 July 2005, 09:53 PM
Reunion allows for these dual marriage events without any special wizardry. The method is quite simple. From either spouse on the family card, click the menu with the PLUS sign and select "Existing spouse..." When prompted for the existing spouse, select the same spouse as is selected in the first marriage event, enter the date of the 2nd event, along with location and any notes, and you are done. Both spouses will show that they had 2 marriage events, and both marriages will be to the same spouse, which is exactly what you wanted.

David G. Kanter
27 July 2005, 12:53 AM
Reunion allows for these dual marriage events without any special wizardry. The method is quite simple. From either spouse on the family card, click the menu with the PLUS sign and select "Existing spouse..." When prompted for the existing spouse, select the same spouse as is selected in the first marriage event, enter the date of the 2nd event, along with location and any notes, and you are done. Both spouses will show that they had 2 marriage events, and both marriages will be to the same spouse, which is exactly what you wanted.Recognizing that each of us can choose whatever protocols we wish, IMHO, that approach of creating two Family Cards for a single marriage--because it had two events establishing the marriage--isn't wise. It seems to me there is still just one married relationship for genealogical and family purposes--and if there were any children from that relationship, I believe they are most appropriately linked to a single Family Card for that relationship.

As I noted in my earlier input to this thread--see #2--I believe the use of multiple Family Cards for the same two persons is best reserved if they established a new relationship after ending an earlier relationship. (If any children were from the subsequent relationship, I'd link them to that additional Family Card.)

I'd also suggest that the results in charts and reports of using two Family Cards would be misleading as, to me, it would be very unconventional.

So, while I applaud the flexibility that Reunion gives each of us to record and display our family information in whatever manner serves us best, I try to use data-entry protocols which--while as comprehensive as practical--would hopefully be properly interpreted by later users of my database, and the charts and reports built from it.

Urs Geiser
27 July 2005, 01:49 PM
Recognizing that each of us can choose whatever protocols we wish, IMHO, that approach of creating two Family Cards for a single marriage--because it had two events establishing the marriage--isn't wise. ...
I agree with David Kanter for the reasons he indicates.

In Switzerland, where I grew up, it is standard procedure to have both a civil ceremony and a church wedding, one to a few days apart and not necessarily in the same town. The former has to be on a working day during office hours, but the latter is usually on a weekend. While the civil ceremony is the legally binding event, it is only attended by the couple and a few witnesses. However, the church ceremony is the big social event, typically followed by other festivities. It is up to the couple as to which anniversary they celebrate. [As an aside, most people are members of a church by default, even if they don't regularly attend. This is a side-effect of a state church, a concept incomprehensible to many of my American acquaintances.]

It would be silly to make two family cards with identical spouses in this situation, just to describe the two events!

Dennis J. Cunniff
27 July 2005, 02:31 PM
I agree with David Kanter for the reasons he indicates.

In Switzerland, where I grew up, it is standard procedure to have both a civil ceremony and a church wedding, one to a few days apart and not necessarily in the same town. It would be silly to make two family cards with identical spouses in this situation, just to describe the two events!While it may not be an ideal solution, I've created two events for the "Events" tab in the "Edit Family" window: "civil ceremony" and "religious ceremony". You wind up with but one family card (since it is but one marriage) but can still document both dates and places. As you say, in most places where this routinely happens (e.g. France and Switzerland), the civil ceremony precedes the religious, so I put that date in the marriage date that is displayed on the family card.

Venita Roylance
27 July 2005, 09:08 PM
I would think this would be similar to a common event for members of the LDS Church. There may be a civil marriage for a couple and later a "sealing to spouse" which is a marriage in an LDS temple. The two events are handled with the civil marriage being recorded in the regular marriage fields, and the sealing to spouse date and place being recorded in the "events" section.

You could easily create a new marriage event and title it "Church Marriage" and record the church marriage the same way. Go to Edit Family > Events > Add Event > Other > Define Event > Add Event, then fill in the blanks. You can then choose that event to show on your default screen and reports by going to Options > Default > Family Fields, then choose it.

In the next update, perhaps "Church Marriage" can be listed with the other regular choices of family events.

Yours,

Venita

fjvanbodegom
28 July 2005, 05:35 AM
For the Church marriage I also have created an Event field.
About 4 years ago I asked Leister for the possibility of adding a field just above the marriage button in the familycard (and only visible when a church marriage is present), so that you can see at once the legal and the church marriage. I illustrated this question with a manipulated screendump.
Might be more users like this option ?

Steve W. Jackson
28 July 2005, 07:22 PM
While the LDS church clearly has a specifically defined term for this, I have to believe that a fair number of people in other faiths have also had church weddings for one reason or another separately from their "legal" ones. I'm wondering if perhaps there's some defined GEDCOM tag which might offer a clue about such an event. If not, then it's worth a reminder that following the suggestion in this thread to create a new event is worthwhile with the caveat that it may not be recognizable to others when data exchange is via GEDCOM.

= Steve =

johnpritt
29 July 2005, 03:07 AM
While the LDS church clearly has a specifically defined term for this, I have to believe that a fair number of people in other faiths have also had church weddings for one reason or another separately from their "legal" ones. I'm wondering if perhaps there's some defined GEDCOM tag which might offer a clue about such an event. If not, then it's worth a reminder that following the suggestion in this thread to create a new event is worthwhile with the caveat that it may not be recognizable to others when data exchange is via GEDCOM.I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on Gedcom, but I can't see any specific tag that distinguishes between a "legal" marriage and a "religious" marriage (for want of better terminology.

These are the marriage events that are explicitly defined in Gedcom, as far as I can see:

MARB {MARRIAGE_BANN}:=
An event of an official public notice given that two people intend to marry.
MARC {MARR_CONTRACT}:=
An event of recording a formal agreement of marriage, including the prenuptial agreement in which marriage partners reach agreement about the property rights of one or both, securing property to their children.
MARL {MARR_LICENSE}:=
An event of obtaining a legal license to marry.
MARR {MARRIAGE}:=
A legal, common-law, or customary event of creating a family unit of a man and a woman as husband and wife.
MARS {MARR_SETTLEMENT}:=
An event of creating an agreement between two people contemplating marriage, at which time they agree to release or modify property rights that would otherwise arise from the marriage.

Note that the definition of marriage (MARR tag) is pretty open.

martha
29 July 2005, 03:09 AM
For the Church marriage I also have created an Event field.
About 4 years ago I asked Leister for the possibility of adding a field just above the marriage button in the familycard (and only visible when a church marriage is present), so that you can see at once the legal and the church marriage. I illustrated this question with a manipulated screendump.
Might be more users like this option ?IF one were going to add such a field, and I don't see any need for it since I put all that info into the marriage memo field, I would like to see the name be "religious ceremony" since lots of us don't know from churches.

Martha Lev-Zion, Israel

Mary Moody
30 July 2005, 07:02 AM
IF one were going to add such a field, and I don't see any need for it since I put all that info into the marriage memo field, I would like to see the name be "religious ceremony" since lots of us don't know from churches.Dear Martha and All,

Technically, there is only one marriage and it is civil. A subsequent ceremony is called the "Blessing" of the marriage (whether it be in a Church, Synagogue, an open air garden, or LDS Temple). There are not two marriages, but one; no remarriage. My husband and I renewed our marriage vows on our 25th wedding anniversary and had another "church wedding." Instead of saying, "I now pronounce you man and wife," the officiant said, "I now pronounce that you continue to live joyfully as man and wife."
Some churches even have a ceremony called "A Blessing of a Civil Marriage." At the blessing of a civil marriage, the vows are often renewed before the blessing is given; the blessing service may follow immediately after the civil marriage or years later.
What is confusing for many of us is the English system that carried over to the USA and Canada. The Clergy are given the authority by the state to officiate both the civil marriage and the religious blessing together at the same time. For example, see <http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/formatted_1979.htm> about half way down under "Pastoral Offices."
I too make note of Blessings in the "memo" section.