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Ron Snowden
13 June 2007, 09:45 PM
My wife has encountered Royalty in her genealogy. No, not Paris Hilton. We are stumped on how to list the names she is finding. For example, one of the names she is dealing with is 'Waleram IV Duke De LIMBOURG & MONTJOIE.'

I guess this is the proper format, since this name is also on the IGI shown in this manner. But...I don't necessarily think the IGI is particularly reliable; and would appreciate some advice on how to deal with names such as these.

Any comments?

Ron Snowden

Thanks,

Dennis J. Cunniff
13 June 2007, 10:36 PM
My wife has encountered Royalty in her genealogy. No, not Paris Hilton. We are stumped on how to list the names she is finding. For example, one of the names she is dealing with is 'Waleram IV Duke De LIMBOURG & MONTJOIE.'

I guess this is the proper format, since this name is also on the IGI shown in this manner. But...I don't necessarily think the IGI is particularly reliable; and would appreciate some advice on how to deal with names such as these.

Any comments?

Ron Snowden

Thanks,

The best advice is to give up the idea that there's a "right" way to do it. You're into the wonderful world of people without last names, who will be known by a bewildering number of different appelations. You just need to adopt a way that's going to make your file more uniform, and that will allow you to predict how you'd have entered a name so you can find it again.

Your "Waleram IV Duke De LIMBOURG & MONTJOIE" is probably "my" "Walram IV of Limburg", and someone else's "Walram IV, Duke of Limburg 1221-1226", and yet someone else's "Waleran (Walram) IV, Duke of Monschou, Count in the Ardennergau". I like to use a very simple "of Limburg" in the surname field, rather than try to cram all the titles in, with all the variations that entails. I put the titles and any other names in the notes.

You need to decide a few things:
[1] use English names, or use the original language for names
[2] use English titles, or use the original language for titles
[3] put titles in the prefix field, the surname field, or the notes
[3] put what's in the surname field in UPPERCASE or Mixed Case.

I like to stick to the original language/original names & use capitalization appropriate for that language. I don't like using capital letters for surnames precisely becuas ethey work so poorly in these situations. (I do, however, generally translate place names when there's an English equivalent. It's hard to be consistent :) )

Nick
14 June 2007, 06:02 PM
You have to decide how far you want to go with recording royals in your family file. There is of course no limit, and you can merrily enter royals until your hard drive bursts!

In my case I record to the nearest well-documented royal, the point being that there are hundreds of royal genealogies on the web, and there seems to be no point in just copying them into your file - once you've found a well-documented royal, anyone who wants to will be able to continue the line.

As for how to enter names, I take a good published royal genealogy resource and use whatever name formats are used in it. If you record your source accordingly, any interested browser should be able to easily switch to that resource and continue looking.

Tim Powys-Lybbe
14 June 2007, 08:33 PM
<snip>

You need to decide a few things:
[1] use English names, or use the original language for names
[2] use English titles, or use the original language for titles
[3] put titles in the prefix field, the surname field, or the notes
Certainly in English practice, it is usual to put titles like 'Lord Whoever', 'Earl of Whatsit' in the Suffix field. Also in that field go particular honours such as KG, VC, DSO, etc.

But in the Prefix field goes 'Sir' for knights, baronets and medieval priests, together with military rank such as Captain.

[4] put what's in the surname field in UPPERCASE or Mixed Case.
Let's add in (5):

[5] Decide how you are going to handle surname prefixes such as 'de' or 'le'. The problem here is when you want to group names together and the family dropped the 'de' in around the 14th century. For this reason I put the 'de' at the end of the forename. On the other hand 'de la' as in 'de la Mere' as a surname became 'Delamere', so I put that in with the surname for the early members of the one family.

In the end it is up to you what you do. Perhaps you should have a look at a few examples and decide what you like the look of. I have quite a lot of this stuff for medieval people on my site: http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/wc_toc.html . (Neville is a good name to look at.) If I have changed my mind in recent years, I've done nothing about it because of the labour of going round everyone; so take your time to have a good look round at several sites and see what you like the look of as it is sheer hell changing everything afterwards!

Ken Ozanne
15 June 2007, 03:15 AM
The best advice is to give up the idea that there's a "right" way to do it. You're into the wonderful world of people without last names, who will be known by a bewildering number of different appelations. You just need to adopt a way that's going to make your file more uniform, and that will allow you to predict how you'd have entered a name so you can find it again.

Your "Waleram IV Duke De LIMBOURG & MONTJOIE" is probably "my" "Walram IV of Limburg", and someone else's "Walram IV, Duke of Limburg 1221-1226", and yet someone else's "Waleran (Walram) IV, Duke of Monschou, Count in the Ardennergau". I like to use a very simple "of Limburg" in the surname field, rather than try to cram all the titles in, with all the variations that entails. I put the titles and any other names in the notes.

You need to decide a few things:
[1] use English names, or use the original language for names
[2] use English titles, or use the original language for titles
[3] put titles in the prefix field, the surname field, or the notes
[3] put what's in the surname field in UPPERCASE or Mixed Case.

I like to stick to the original language/original names & use capitalization appropriate for that language. I don't like using capital letters for surnames precisely becuas ethey work so poorly in these situations. (I do, however, generally translate place names when there's an English equivalent. It's hard to be consistent :) )

I call him Waleram IV and give him the suffix title Duke of Limbourg. No surname because he didn't have one. (I do occasionally use non-existent surnames for people of this era, such as the Plantagenets, that have had the surnames added retrospectively.)

You will certainly see many variations in name - there are German, French and Latin versions for this man and probably quite a few other languages as well. Also, while I'm not saying he wasn't Duke of Montjoie, my reference tends to imply that he wasn't.

But the main thing is to include your sources. I have him as Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists 8th edition, Weiss, line 234B-25. I expect to list all the respectable references I have for such people but this bloke is my 1st cousin 24 times removed and I only multiply references for direct line ancestors. But without sources your work will never be of use to anyone except yourself.

Having reached Waleram IV, you will find, if you haven't already, that most of your ancestors will be very long ago. For instance, I have over 2000 direct ancestors for this bloke. So you are right to give careful consideration to how you are going to record them.

Incidentally, the ability to include both prefix and suffix titles is IMHO one of the best features of Reunion and it was the one that led me to change from PC based programs. (I know a great many more reasons now.)

Best,
Ken

Dennis J. Cunniff
15 June 2007, 07:46 PM
Incidentally, the ability to include both prefix and suffix titles is IMHO one of the best features of Reunion

Though to be really complete, we need a "middle title" so we can distinguish between "Charles, Prince of Wales" and "Prince William of Wales"....

Dennis J. Cunniff
15 June 2007, 07:49 PM
Let's add in (5):

[5] Decide how you are going to handle surname prefixes such as 'de' or 'le'. The problem here is when you want to group names together and the family dropped the 'de' in around the 14th century. For this reason I put the 'de' at the end of the forename. On the other hand 'de la' as in 'de la Mere' as a surname became 'Delamere', so I put that in with the surname for the early members of the one family.

Though Reunion handles this quite nicely by being able to ignore the prefix in indexing, so "de Neville" and "Neville" wind up together in the index.... It's only when the space is elided that there's a problem, and that's just the same as any other surname change.

Tim Powys-Lybbe
18 June 2007, 07:13 PM
Though to be really complete, we need a "middle title" so we can distinguish between "Charles, Prince of Wales" and "Prince William of Wales"....
Not quite. The point is he does not really have a title, though he does have an honorific in 'prince', which goes in the Prefix area. 'William of Wales' is his name, so you have to decide which part goes in the forename bit and which, if any, goes in the surname bit. You can put all of 'William of Wales' in the Forename bit as the tradition with many royal families is that they don't have surnames.

Dennis J. Cunniff
18 June 2007, 11:38 PM
Not quite. The point is he does not really have a title, though he does have an honorific in 'prince', which goes in the Prefix area. 'William of Wales' is his name, so you have to decide which part goes in the forename bit and which, if any, goes in the surname bit. You can put all of 'William of Wales' in the Forename bit as the tradition with many royal families is that they don't have surnames.
Prince William certainly does have a titular dignity, that of Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. But it's not widely used: he's styled "His Royal Highness Prince William Arthur Philip Louis of Wales," and I suppose that's manageable. In any case, this is but a convenient example; "middle" titles are used in many families and it would be convenient to have a place to put them for the sake of narrative reports so that "Ritter" or "Freiherr" show up in the right places, or, alternatively, a space for a narrative form of a person's name that would be used in reports.