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idfitter
17 April 2005, 05:36 PM
Don't know whether this counts as a bug or a wish list request.

With most other apps, when the app is not uppermost on screen, clicking on part of its window will change the focus to it. This click will not be interpreted by the app as an action, just a change in focus. Another click is then required to actually select something.

Reunion however behaves differently, in that this initial click also causes an action to be performed, e.g. opening a dialog box for an individual when all I want is to switch back to Reunion.

Is this a bug or is it (as Microsoft would say) a feature?

Bob Rugo
17 April 2005, 10:33 PM
There was a discussion about this a while ago on ReunionTalk and I don't think there was ever any resolution of what caused this behaviour.

This used to happen on my computer and then it stopped and I have no idea why. I got so used to clicking only on the non-active parts of the Reunion window that I didn't notice when it stopped.

Currently Reunion 8.06 on OSX 10.3.9

Bob Rugo
Boston, Massachusetts
http://homepage.mac.com/bobrugo

Frank
18 April 2005, 11:58 AM
Yes, this was discussed back in November 2002. Several people expressed their thoughts on the issue, pros and cons.

Search the ReunionTalk Database for the words "click through."

http://www.leisterpro.com/doc/RT/rtSearch.html

Here was my reply from Nov 2002...

This is a tricky issue, because you're describing something Apple calls "click through" and, according to Apple, we're supposed to support "click through" -- meaning if you're in one application and you click in Reunion's window directly on, say, the person's name, then we're supposed to do two things: bring Reunion to the front AND open the Edit Person window. Perhaps due to all the buttons on Reunion's family card, it's not the best behavior.

Scott Gerstenberger
18 April 2005, 12:19 PM
Reunion 8.0.6 on my Mac OS X 10.3.9 system certainly exhibits the "click through" behavior. Given what Frank says, this doesn't seem like a bug, but I still find it annoying.

Generally, I think it's a good idea for software to try to adhere to the "principle of least astonishment" i.e., behaving in a way which astonishes the user as little as possible. But, despite what the Apple standard says, "click through" in Reunion produces a lot of astonishment IMHO because, as Frank noted, there are a lot of buttons one can easily hit by accident.

If it's not too hard to implement, having a preference to control this behavior would be great.

Scott

Bob Rugo
18 April 2005, 03:50 PM
Reunion 8.0.6 on my Mac OS X 10.3.9 system certainly exhibits the "click through" behavior. Given what Frank says, this doesn't seem like a bug, but I still find it annoying.

If it's not too hard to implement, having a preference to control this behavior would be great.I wish I could tell you why my similar system doesn't click through.

I tried again and no part of Reunion does this now, as opposed to my Apple Mail application which does click through if I click on "Get Mail" on the tool bar at ther top but doesn't click through and select a message if i click on a message that isn't already the selected one.

Not having any idea what I'm doing, I even tried a normal click, which I used to use, instead of a tap on the track pad, which my daughter got me addicted to a while ago, and there was no difference.

I remember that there was a suggestion last time about changing "key repeat rate" or "double click speed" but I didn't find that those made any difference.

Anyone got an idea?

Bob Rugo
http://homepage.mac.com/bobrugo

Bob Rugo
18 April 2005, 03:55 PM
no part of Reunion does this now, http://homepage.mac.com/bobrugoActually, not quite "no part," the red, yellow and green buttons at the top that close or hide the Reunion window do click through.

Bob Rugo

theKiwi
18 April 2005, 05:24 PM
I'll add my note here too that I find it quite annoying - the behaviour can be quite unexpected at times, depending on just where you click, but the Reunion window has many less than obvious buttons on it, and often I'll click on the part of the window I see, and then have to dismiss some dialog box or other before I can do what I really wanted to do - Mark Groups for example as the entire bottom right side of the window (apart from the "obvious" buttons for information and changing the children view) is a button.

I'd rather have to click twice - once to bring Reunion to the front and another time to click the button I want clicked, than to have Reunion come to the front with the wrong button already clicked.

plink plink

Roger

idfitter
18 April 2005, 05:37 PM
This is a tricky issue, because you're describing something Apple calls "click through" and, according to Apple, we're supposed to support "click through"...
Hmm... Apple don't seem to comply with their own policy here because Safari doesn't click through. If you click on a link in Safari while it is not uppermost, you have to click again on the link.

Steve W. Jackson
18 April 2005, 06:50 PM
Hmm... Apple don't seem to comply with their own policy here because Safari doesn't click through. If you click on a link in Safari while it is not uppermost, you have to click again on the link.
That's because, as I probably said in the thread to which Frank referred, it's not actually a policy on Apple's part. If you read their user interface guidelines, there are conflicting discussions concerning this behavior. There are some pros and cons addressed in some areas of the guidelines, particularly addressing what can go wrong if a button is activated via click through when the window doesn't have focus.

In my opinion, buttons (other than the window's red/yellow/green decorations) should never respond to a click-through, and that's based on 24 years of developing software and hearing user gripes about how things "ought to be". But that doesn't change the fact that, despite Frank's indication that they support it in Reunion, some of us experience it and some do not. So there must be something else at play in this strange and confusing experience.

= Steve =

bmohr
18 April 2005, 07:03 PM
Hmm... Apple don't seem to comply with their own policy here because Safari doesn't click through. If you click on a link in Safari while it is not uppermost, you have to click again on the link.
Apple's policy isn't so much "click-though should be supported everywhere" as it is "click-through should be supported to the extent that makes sense." In the case of Safari, it does support click-through in most places. The toolbar and bookmark bars support it, as do most form elements and buttons within web pages (but not, as you point out, text links).

Apple's official policy on the matter is covered in the Apple Human Interface Guidelines (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGWindows/chapter_8_section_4.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/20000961-TPXREF20) document. I believe Apple has clarified the guidelines since this issue last came up on ReunionTalk.

In the case of Reunion, I don't have any strong feelings on the matter either way, though I do wish it would dim its toolbar when in the background to show that the buttons won't respond to clicks at the moment (cf. the delete button in Mail). This is one area in which the guidelines are quite clear: "Items that do not provide click-through should appear in their disabled state" (though I suppose one could argue that in Reunion, their disabled state happens to look identical to their enabled state :)).

Shelley Monson
19 April 2005, 06:33 PM
Hmm... Apple don't seem to comply with their own policy here because Safari doesn't click through. If you click on a link in Safari while it is not uppermost, you have to click again on the link.They're not even consistent with that - some days it does it for me, and others it doesn't. Today it's clicking through.

Regards
Shelley

martha
20 April 2005, 02:27 AM
Actually, not quite "no part," the red, yellow and green buttons at the top that close or hide the Reunion window do click through.Actually, when I updated to Reunion - whatever the latest 8.xx version is, I began suffering from "click through" and I cannot stand it! I am on OSX 10.3.9

Martha in Israel

Bob White
21 April 2005, 02:20 PM
Actually, when I updated to Reunion - whatever the latest 8.xx version is, I began suffering from "click through"...I have suffered this click through thing consistently since around the time that Reunion 7.0 was released. It is very annoying because it wastes my time when I have to cancel out of whichever window was brought to life. I usually am careful to click on a non-button area when bringing Reunion to the front.

Frank
21 April 2005, 03:40 PM
I have suffered this click through thing consistently since around the time that Reunion 7.0 was released... Well, let's not exaggerate ;) "Click Through" didn't exist until OSX, and had no effect in Reunion until Reunion 8 for OSX was released.

Bob Goode
23 April 2005, 07:12 PM
Since much of this thread deals with "Wish List" issues, I will add my two cents worth of wish list comments on 'click through'. Either eliminate the behavior or allow people the choice to activate or ignore 'click through'. As a Reunion user that has switched from OS 9 to 10 and love the combination of OS 10 and Reunion 8, the 'click through' is one of the few behaviors I find annoying on the computer. Having said that, I trust the judgement of the folks at Leister to carefully consider all the options. Reunion continues to be not only the best genealogy application, but one of the very best apps, period.